| Author |
Topic: Aryan invasion theory, book reviews,
bibliography, discussion |
Kaushal
Member |
 posted 12-11-2000 16:47
  
Good work , Raghav.
Article in TOI, the URL will disappear , hence I am posting part
of the article. Some have questioned in this thread, why there was
no mention in the ancient texts to the drying up of the Sarasvati.
We have pointed out that such is not the case, and this article
makes mention of the Panchavimsa Brahmana confirming the
disappearance of the Sarasvati.
http://www.timesofindia.com/today/13edit5.htm
Saraswati: River Beyond the Myth
By V G Rao
The sacred literature of every religion abounds in parables and
semantically loaded symbolisms, usually contrived for easy
comprehension of spiritual ideas by lay followers. Hindu texts are
no exception to this convention. It is easy to be misled by the
unyielding layers of meaning informing our age-old scriptures,
accumulated over time and open to subjective interpretations. One
particular problem concerns the authenticity of the river Saraswati,
venerated by Hindus throughout India with the fervency of the
faithful and long believed to be a product of poetic reverie. But
not anymore. Scientific studies have dispelled this ambiguity and
helped restore the reality behind the myth.
In 1910, G E Pilgrim published a landmark paper in which he drew
attention to an alluvial deposit of great antiquity found stretching
all the way from the Himalayan foothills to the Sind gulf. Pilgrims
imagined the deposit to have been laid by a primitive river that he
named appropriately as the Siwalik river. Geological changes brought
about a vivisection of this river leading to the formation of the
Gangetic system, the Indus system and its five Punjab tributaries.
Pointedly, the Rig Vedic poets appear to have been aware of such a
one as this, for the Saraswati of their vision is also looked upon
as a gargantuan river flowing from the Himalayas to the sea. One
cannot but wonder at the similar imageries.
Though the Vedas are fundamentally religious texts their contents
are supposed to encrust a core of history. The number of allusions
to Saraswati in the Rig Veda far outnumber those to other rivers, a
fact that corroborates the all-important position assigned to her in
the Vedic pantheon. For instance, in the Rig Veda she is praised as
the Mother among rivers, the Goddess Saraswati - ``Ambitame Naditame
Devitame Saraswati'' (RV II.41.16). Saraswati was also revered as
Haraohati in the parallelly evolving culture that flourished in Iran
under the stewardship of Zarathustra. The precincts of Saraswati
were home to a large population belonging to an avowedly pastoral
society given to religious persuasions. The Manu Samhita describes
the land between Saraswati and Drishadwati, created by the gods as
``the land of brahmins'' (MS II.17-8). But before the end of the
early Vedic period, the Saraswati began to ebb away from public
consciousness, and in the Panchavimsa Brahmana we come across a
clear reference to her disappearance. ...
K
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Sagar
Member |
posted 12-11-2000 20:34
Excellant work Raghav, Kaushal. Keep 'em coming.
BTW, after reading the article I could not but notice that they
(TOI being one of the unofficial mouthpieces of the
Nehruvian-Marxists) are trying to resurrect the fallen pantheons of
the Nehruvian-Marxist family and therefore the ruling deity of the
pantheon Romilla Thapar - the eminent historian' - gets to comment
positively on the importance of the Saraswati in the Rig Veda and
North Indian geography. I thought that was one of the points that
Frawley, Rajaram, Kalyanaraman, Elst, etc were trying to make all
the time. I guess unless 'the old lady speaks' nothing is official
in India. They have mastered the art of mutation.
[This message has been edited by Sagar (edited
12-11-2000).]
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 13-11-2000 13:02
http://www.picatype.com/dig/dm2/dm2aa06.htm
Colonial Indology–Sociopolitics of the Ancient Indian
Past
by D.K. Chakrabarti. 1997. New Delhi: Munshiram Manoharlal
pp.257. Price Rs 350/-.
Reviewed by D.P. Agrawal
see also
http://www.egroups.com/message/IndianCivilization/1754
[This message has been edited by Kaushal (edited
30-11-2000).]
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 13-11-2000 18:56
Thank you Kaushal and Sagar. However I honestly think I do not
deserve your compliments. Coz all I am doing is reading, plucking
and paraphrasing stuff from Bhargava's book and planting it here. I
am however being careful in cross-checking the numbers of the
Rgvedic verses from a couple of sources and also paying attention if
the translation makes sense as given in the book.
I think I may have some more on the "mythical" Sarasvati in my
following posts on this thread. In fact I have numerous verses with
me where she has been heaped with praises which even the mightiest
Sindhu would be envious of.
[This message has been edited by VRaghav (edited
13-11-2000).]
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 14-11-2000 01:36
For those who jettison as myth faster than one could even say
Mahabharata or those who relegate Krishna as a funky spook, please
visit the following URL:
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Dwarka.htm
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 14-11-2000 01:52
Apropos of the discovery of Dwaraka, it is my considered opinion
that SR Rao is probably one of the greatest archaeologists of India.
He has written among others 2 books , one on the SSC in general and
one on Lothal.
K
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 15-11-2000 09:54
This is not a new article and is included here for completeness. The
Russian school of Indologists basically subscribe to AIT, placing
the Urheimat in present day Armenia.Even though we may not agree
with the conclusions, the references are important enough to
understand the context of the claims being made. Colin Renfrew does
not subscribe to the AIT.
Kaushal
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/6507/chronicle120.html
Contents
The Authors
The Indo-European Superfamily of
Languages
Grimm's Law of Lautverschiebung ("Sound Shift")
The
Place of Armenia and the Armenian Language
The Words Describing
Agricultural Technology
The Landscape Described by the
Indo-European Protolanguage
The Terminology for Wheeled Transport
and Smelting of Metals
The Migratory Paths of the
Indo-Europeans
The Anthropometry Measures
Further Reading
Ref:
INDO-EUROPEAN AND THE INDO-EUROPEANS: A RECONSTRUCTION AND
HISTORICAL TYPOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF A PROTOLANGUAGE AND PROTOCULTURE.
Parts I and 11. Thomas V. Gamkrelidze and Vjacheslav V. Ivanov.
Tbilisi State University, 1984.
ARCHAEOLOGY AND LANGUAGE: THE PUZZLE OF INDO-EUROPEAN ORIGlNS.
Colin Renfrew. Cambridge University Press, 1988.
RECONSTRUCTING LANGUAGES AND CULTURES: ABSTRACTS AND MATERlALS
FROM THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL INTERDISC1PLlNARY SYMPOSIUM ON LANGUAGE
AND PREHISTORY, ANN ARBOR, NOVEMBER 8-12, 1988. Edited by Vitaly
Shevoroshkin. Studienverlag Dr. Norbert Brockmeier, 1989.
IN SEARCH OF THE INDO-EUROPEANS: LANGUAGE, ARCHAEOLOGY AND MYTH.
J. P. Mallory. Thames and Hudson, 1989.
WHEN WORLDS COLLIDE: INDO-EUROPEANS AND PRE-INDO-EUROPEANS.
Edited by John Greppin and T. L. Markey. Karoma Publishers, Inc.,
1990
see also
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~twier/mimungsociety/mimungglottalic.html
[This message has been edited by Kaushal (edited
15-11-2000).]
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 16-11-2000 23:13
Before proceeding to the verses which refer to the Sarasvati river,
I thought it might not be a bad idea to quote some verses which
point towards other geographical features in the Sapta Saindhava
region viz. the desert.
1. The Rg speaks of deserts ("àJ) in plural number. One verse speaks of three
desert regions indicating that there were three deserts in the
country:
I-35-8 -- ºte "àJ gtuslt
2. There are references like passing over deserts:
III-45-1 --
"àJuJ ;tâ Rrn
3. Parjanya made the deserts passable:
V-83-10 -- yfU"okàJtàgÀgu;Jt W
4. Like water brought to a man in the desert:
VI-34-4 --
slk l "àJàlrCmk g=tv&
5. Overcame by thrist in the desert:
IX-79-3 -- "àJàl ;]íKt mbhe;
6. Bless us in paths and deserts:
X-63-5 -- ôJrô; l& vÚgtmw "àJmw
7. How many leagues in the desert?:
X-86-20 -- "àJ a gÀf]à;ºtk a fUr; rôJútt rJ gtuslt
8. In a verse rivers are said to cut their paths through the
deserts:
V-45-2 -- "kJKokmtu
l‘& Ft=tuyKto&
9. There are expressions like deserts got flooded and water
flowed:
IV-17-2 -- yt=oà"àJtrl mhgà;
ytv&
10. Indra inundated thirsty desert plains:
IV-19-7 -- "àJtàgs{tâ yv]K¢;]MtKtâ
11. Rain falls over deserts:
V-53-6 -- ylw "àJlt grà; J]³g&
12. Plants spread over deserts:
IV-33-7 -- "àJtr;²àltuM"e& etc.
The above references show that there were deserts in the Sapta
Saindhava which were passable and in fact were crossed frequently by
men. Also some verses allude to rivers meandering through the
deserts and good rainfall occurring over them, which sort of
corroborates with the life-sustainable semi-arid or temperate
climate which geologists predict to have been enjoyed by the people
of the Sapta Saindhava.
[This message has been edited by VRaghav (edited
17-11-2000).]
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 02:04
crossposted from Indic traditions site, K
From:
Date: Wed Nov 15, 2000 12:43pm
Subject: AIT,
Let us not forget the Ocean
I am including a recent collection of references to the ocean
that occur in
the Rig Veda. This makes any outside India basis
for Vedic culture absurd.
The references are numerous and show
that the Vedic culture arose in
proximity to the ocean, so much
so that the ocean became one of the
predominant images in Vedic
thought.
Vamadeva
Geographical References in the Rig Veda, the Ocean
by David
Frawley
The Rig Veda has a certain geographical horizon. It projects a
land of
seven great rivers bounded by several oceans and many
mountains. It mainly
shows the geographical sphere of the
Bharatas and their neighbors.
In the following chapter we will
explore the geographical implications of
the Rig Veda. Much of
this I already covered in my book Gods, Sages and
Kings. Here I
will summarize that data and add some new information. The
Vedas
reflect a vast knowledge of the earth, mentioning various mountains,
rivers, deserts and oceans quite befitting the great
subcontinent of India. A
hymn of Hiranyastupa Angirasa in the
Rig Veda makes this clear:
Savitar (the Sun God) has revealed eight mountains of the earth,
three desert
regions and seven rivers. RV I.35.8
The Ocean
I must emphasize the numerous oceanic and maritime references in
the
Vedas, as scholars keep ignoring this obvious point while
projecting origins
for the Vedic culture outside of India. The
term ocean (samudra) occurs
commonly in the Rig Veda, about a
hundred times. In fact the ocean is
mentioned many more times
than any river or group of rivers by name. Besides
the term
samudra, related terms like sagara, arnas and sindhu can also mean
sea.
Whole theories of the location of the Vedic people have
been built around
a few scanty references to rivers like the
Kubha in Afganistan, while much
more common references to the
ocean are ignored. Only one river, the
Sarasvati, which is
clearly in India, has an extensive mythology about it.
Yet the
ocean, not only has an extensive mythology about it, there are
oceanic symbolisms about all the main Vedic Gods including
Indra, Agni, Soma,
Surya and Varuna, just to name a
few.
References occur to two oceans, eastern and western (RV
X.136.5), to
inferior and superior oceans (RV VII.6.7; X.98.6),
or to two seas called
samudra and purisha (RV I.163.1; IV.21.3).
There are additional references to
four oceans, corresponding to
the four directions (RV I.164.42; IX.33.6;
X.47.20). These four
oceans may relate to the eastern, western and southern
seas, and
to the lake in Kashmir in the north. An ocean with seven
foundations is described (RV VIII.40.5). Sometimes the Rig Veda
speaks of
many oceans (RV I.161.14: VI.50.13; VI.72.3; VII.70.2;
VIII.20.25; IX.80.1).
Given India's proximity to the Arabian
Sea, Bay of Bengal and the Persian
Gulf this idea of several
oceans is not surprising. The common Brahmana great
anointing of
kings (AB viii. 15) is "from one end up to the further side of
the earth bounded by the ocean as sole ruler." Similarly, the
purohit as
chief priest guards the king, "as the ocean does the
earth (AB viii.25)."
Such statements emphatically rule out
Central Asia or Afghanistan.
Indra as the Ocean
The main Vedic myth is of Indra slaying the dragon and releasing
the
seven rivers to flow into the sea. This is a myth of the
land of the seven
rivers that extends to the ocean.
All songs give increase to Indra who is as expansive as the sea.
RV I.11.1
Indra has an extent like the sea. RV I.30.3
He slew
the dragon laying at the mountain. The creator fashioned for him
his
Flashing thunderbolt. As milch cows bellowing as they flowed,
directly the
waters entered the ocean. RV I.32.2
Indra, an
ocean of wealth. RV I.51.1
Indra, extensive as the sea. RV I.52.4
Hymns to Indra like the ocean in their convergence. RV I.56.2
Indra, not by the seas or mountains is your chariot contained.
RV II.16.3
As rivers according to their impulse go forth, the
floods as if chariot borne
entered
into the sea. As rivers
uniting to the sea, to Indra they carry the
well-pressed Soma.
RV III.36.6-7
The Soma drops, like rivers into the sea enter
into Indra. RV III.46.4
You destroyed the dragon who withheld the
waters. Earth in her awareness
furthered your thunderbolt. You
gave energy to the ocean-going floods. RV
IV.16.7
Come to us
quickly, Indra, from Heaven or Earth, from the ocean or the
heavenly sea. RV IV.21.3
You slew the serpent who encompassed
the floods. You released the waters to
the
Ocean. RV
VI.30.4
You destroyed the dragon and Heaven approved. You sent
forth the flood of the
rivers and filled manifold seas. RV
VI.72.2
As rivers to the ocean strong hymns and songs have
entered Indra whose extent
is
vast. RV VI.36.3
By which
you released the great floods to the ocean, Indra that power of
yours is vigorous. RV VIII.3.10
In the slope of the
mountains, in the concourse of the rivers, by the power
of the
hymn the sage RV Indra) was born. Hence arisen conscious he looks
down
upon the sea, from which awakening he stirs. RV
VIII.6.28-9
To Indra and Agni, like the seer Nabhaka, direct your
prayers, who poured out
the sea with seven foundations, whose
opening is above. RV VIII.40.5
Whether you in the east, the
south, the north or the west you are called by
men, come quickly
with your powers; whether you exult yourself on the slope
of
Heaven, in the Sun-world or in the ocean of Soma. RV
VIII.65.2-3
Whether you are in the luminous realm of Heaven or in
the domain of the sea,
whether in the station of the Earth or in
the atmosphere, come to us, Indra.
RV VIII.97.5
The
thunderbolt lies within the ocean enclosed by the waters. RV
VIII.100.9
Indra is a fourfold ocean, the support of treasures.
RV X.47.2
To Indra I direct my songs in an unceasing flow, like
waters from the bottom
of the sea. RV X.89.4
Agni as the Ocean
Agni, the Divine Fire, also has his ocean-going form, which is
often a
ship.
Who shake the mountains across the wavy
ocean. May Agni come with the Maruts.
RV I.19.7
All delights
converge in Agni, as seven mighty streams the ocean. RV
I.71.7
Agni, you move to the ocean of Heaven...to the waters
which are beyond the
luminous heaven of the Sun and to those
which stand below it. RV III.22.2-3
All the universe rests within
your nature, in the ocean, in the heart, in all
life. RV
IV.58.1,11
From the inferior and superior oceans, he received
them, from Heaven and
Earth.
RV VII.6.5-7
Oh Agni, for
your firm law our words like cattle are spoken, as rivers to the
sea. RV VIII.44.25
Agni, whose vesture is the ocean. RV
VIII.102.4-6
Agni, the one ocean, the upholder of treasures. RV
X.5.1
In the ocean, in the Waters, as the God-mind, you are
enkindled as the Divine
vision, oh Agni, in the udder of Heaven.
RV X.45.1
Soma as the Ocean
Soma is not simply a mountain God as he is often portrayed, he is
also a
water God is often the sea. This also reflects that the
Soma cult pervaded
India from the mountains to the sea.
Flow on Soma as wealth from four oceans to us, a thousandfold and
from every
side. RV IX.33.6
Flow on Soma as peace for us,
draw out for our milk an ambrosial juice,
increase the ocean of
the hymn. RV IX.61.15
Forming the ray from Heaven, you flow
through all forms. Soma, as the ocean
you
overflow. Soma,
beloved enter the ocean. RV IX.64.8,17,27
To the ocean the Soma
drops, like cows to their home, have come to the source
of
truth. RV IX.66.12
The ocean-going angels have flowed to the wise
Soma. RV IX.78.3
The Soma libations have extended like the
oceans. RV IX.80.1
Soma (the Moon) stirs the ocean with the
winds. RV IX.84.4
The king of the river plunges into the sea,
lodged in the rivers, he holds to
the wave of the waters. RV
IX.86.8
Soma flows as the first of the rivers. RV IX.86.12
You are the all knowing ocean, oh seer, yours are the five
directions in the
law, you transcend Heaven and Earth, yours are
the constellations, flowing
Soma, who are the Sun. RV IX.86.29
Thus like rivers down to the sea, the Soma drops have poured
into the
chalices. RV IX.88.6
The king of the rivers has put
on the vesture. He has mounted the most
righteous
ship of
truth. RV IX.89.2
The ocean roars in the original laws,
generating creation as the king of the
world. RV IX.97.40
Flowing Soma, the Divine King, the vast truth, crosses the ocean
by the wave.
RV
IX.107.15
Soma, as the ecstatic, you were
the first to extend the ocean for the Gods.
RV IX.107.23
Flow
on Soma as the great ocean, the Father of the Gods through all the
laws.
RV
IX.109.2
Varuna
Varuna is specifically a God of the sea. He is often connected to
Soma as
a water God but also to Mitra and to Indra.
The Maruts move through Heaven, Agni through the Earth, the Wind
moves
through the atmosphere. Through the Waters and the oceans,
Varuna moves. RV
I.161.14
That is the great magic power of
this divine greatest seer, Varuna, that no
one can challenge,
when the diverse flowing streams cannot fill the one ocean
with
their water. RV V.85.6
Varuna dug a path for the Sun and led
forth the ocean-going floods of the
rivers. RV
VII.87.1
Varuna is a secret ocean. RV VIII.41.8
Ships
Vedic references to ships are also numerous like those of the
sea. They
are not only ships to cross the rivers but to cross
the sea.
Varuna knows the station of the birds that fly through the
atmosphere. He
knows the ocean-going ships. RV I.25.7
As a
ship across the river (or sea), Agni, take us across to safety. RV
I.97.8
Agni will deliver us across all difficulties, as a ship
across the river (or
sea). RV I.99.1
When he was lost in the
supportless, foundationless, ungraspable ocean, you
put forth
your strength, oh Ashwins. You bore Bhujyu home, mounted on a ship
with a hundred oars. RV I.116.5
Ashwins, you bore Bhujyu from
the flooding ocean with straight moving
bird-horses. RV I.117.14
Ashwins, you delivered Taugrya RV Bhujyu) across the ocean. RV
I.118.6
Agni, give us a ship for our vehicle and house, with
constant oars and
quarters, which can take across our heroes and
benefactors and our people to
safety. RV I.140.12
Agni,
destroyer of difficulties, deliver us across all danger as a ship
across the river (or sea). RV V.5.9
The Sun mounted the
luminous ocean, having yoked his straight-backed horses.
The
wise have led him like a ship through the water. RV V.45.10
When,
oh Ashwins, you cross the ocean, men bring you fruits and delights.
RV
V.73.8
Pushan, your ships that are within the sea, golden
in the atmosphere which
travel, by them you go on the embassy of
the Sun, made by love, desiring
glory. RV VI.58.3
You carried
Bhujyu, the son of Tugra, from the watery ocean by birds, through
the Air. RV VI.62.6
Ashwins, Bhujyu cast in the ocean, you
bore across the floods with your
unfailing horses. RV
VII.69.7
When Varuna and I ascend into the ship, when we go forth
to the middle of the
sea, then we move with the waves of the
waters and swing back and forth as if
on a swing for joy. Varuna
placed Vasishta in a ship. Skillful, he made him
into a seer by
his greatness. A sage, he made him a singer in the brightness
of
the days, as far as the heavens extended, as far as the dawns. RV
VII.88.3-4
When the son of Tugra served you, abandoned in the
sea, then with wings your
vehicle flied. RV VIII.5.22
Ashwins, whether you are in a distant habitation, or beyond in
the luminous
realm of Heaven or in a house built upon the sea
come thence to us. RV
VIII.10.1
Oh Divine Varuna, guide this
hymn of your worshipper with wisdom and skill,
by it may we
cross over all difficulties; may we mount it as a saving ship.
RV VIII.42.3
Deliver us across all difficulties, oh Universal
Gods, as ships across the
waters. RV VIII.83.3
Soma, deliver
us as a ship across the river (or sea). RV IX.70.10
The ships of
truth have delivered the righteous. Varuna takes us across the
great ocean. RV IX.73.1,3
Those who do not have the power to
ascend the sacrificial ship, trembling
fall into calamity. RV
X.44.6
May we ascend the Divine ship with good oars, free of
sin, which does not
sink, to happiness. RV X.63.10
Specific Rivers Flowing to the Sea
Specific rivers are mentioned flowing to the sea, including the
Sarasvati
and Sindhu (Indus).
Sarasvati, pure in her course from the mountains to the sea. RV
VII.95.2
From the lap of the mountains, happy, smiling, like two
running mares, like
two
bright Mother cows licking their
calf, Vipas and Shutudri run with fluid.
Directed by Indra,
seeking power, as chariots they travel to the sea. RV
III.33.1-2
Maruts, what medicine of yours is in the Indus and
in the Asikni rivers, what
is in the oceans or what is in the
mountains. RV VIII.20.25
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SandeepA
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 07:05
Hi,
This could be a little aside from the current discussion. I
am looking for the origin of the word 'Dravida' better known as
Dravidian. Does it have its origins in ancient Indian languages like
Sanskrit, Brahmi, Pali etc or is it a term coined much later during
colonial times?
Sandy
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 10:12
Sandeep, the etymology of Dravida (Dramida, Damilla, Tamil, Tamizh)
is very interesting. There was a fairly exhaustive discussion on
this in the Indictraditions site. It is too long to reproduce below
and you need to subscribe to join in this;
http://www.egroups.com/message/indictraditions/1771
This is a fascinating subject to pursue independently, and those
who are interested should pursue this in a separate thread.
K
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 12:51
Is this VG Rao same as the one posted in the TOI article?
http://www.sulekha.com/cgi-bin/column.cgi?resource=wa_ait
[This message has been edited by VRaghav (edited
17-11-2000).]
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 14:49
Raghav, it appears to be the same person. Generally I have no
problems with the article. I have a quibble with calling the
Autochthonous Vedics (AV) revisionist. Almost all the elders in my
extended family have expessed incredulity and skepticism with the
AIT. In my view, the appellation 'revisionist' is more appropriate
to the AIT. Merely because it has been rammed down our throats by
its protagonists at a time when India was not independent, and had
no control of its destiny, of course does not increase its validity.
Again Mr.Rao falls into the trap of imputing motives to the AV,
in this case that they are intent on proving 'a glorious past' for
India. Let me say personally, I am merely imbued with a desire to
'know' the truth, to the extent possible. If it turns out that there
were invaders/immigrants from Lithuania in 1500 BC, I am not going
to lose much sleep over it. It is somewhat judgemental to impute
similar motives to the AV theorists. One is on more solid ground
attacking their methodology and results.
Kaushal
[This message has been edited by Kaushal (edited
17-11-2000).]
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punnam
Member |
 posted 17-11-2000 14:53
Is this VG Rao same as the one posted by Kaushal -- the TOI
article?
Possible. Venkatesh G. Rao of Wide Anngle interviewed Subhash Kak
for Sulekha about AIT. Raghav, good work on the geography of Rig and
about Dwaraka. Even I heard that Godavari is mentioned in Vedas a
couple of times. I am curious to know if it is part of the 21 or 99
rivers. You may have to go thru others Vedas to get that though. One
of my favourite Telugu film songs is about Godavari and is also the
nearest river from our native place in dry Telengana.
Vedam la Ghoshinche Godavari
Amara Dhamam la
Shobille RajaMahendhri
Shathapdala Charitha Gala Sundara
Nagaram
Gatha Vaibhava Deepthulatho(?) Kammani Kaavyam
Kaushal, needless to say you are doing a great job.
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 14:59
Books on Vedic Literature:
http://www.india-future.com/heritage/vedic.html
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punnam
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 15:08
Kaushal,
I have similar sentiments about VG Rao. I like his emphasis on
Roti Kapda aur Makaan. But, do not agree with him that it is
possible to provide for the essentials of a Billion people without
asserting our National Indentity, which cannot be possible by
denying what we were throught the History. If there were invasions
or migrations so be it. But there are no proofs that there were any.
On the contrary OIT seems more possible.
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 17-11-2000 15:27
Kaushal,
considering that this VG Rao became a 'convert' by a mere reading
of the e-materials over a period of about 30 days (as he confesses)
is in itself a big deal! Also, his commentary on the vedic Sarasvati
in TOI is very much on the positive side. At the end of the day, all
I want to know is whether the so called Aryans were indigenous to
India or not. It is gratifying to know that more and more evidences
are piling up in favour of the indigenous school.
Sateesh,
thank you. I will try to seek information on Godavari in the
verses of the Rg. My opinion is that even if she is mentioned, it
was in the heart of the Sapta Saindhava, more precisely on the banks
of the Sarasvati, inspired by her tirthas that the Rg was composed.
BTW, translation of the Telugu verse please?
IP:
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 18-11-2000 01:25
Lost river Saraswati may recharge aquifers http://news.sawaal.com/04-Jul-2000/Reviews/50.htm
>>>Jaipur: The river
Saraswati, enshrined in mythology as one of the great rivers of
India, may hold the key to recharging ground water reserves in the
Thar desert of Rajasthan, feel experts.
Desertification of
Thar region in western Rajasthan began 3000 to 5000 years ago when
the mighty river dried up and was considered ''lost'' for centuries.
However, during the past three decades, research and integrated
field activities to identify the paleo-course of the river had
yielded positive results, P C Chaturvedi and P C Chandra of the
Central Ground Water Board, Lucknow, stated in a joint paper
presented at a national seminar on ground water management
strategies here last week.
The paper titled ''Artificial
recharge of unsaturated zone of palaeo river courses in Thar
desert'' said the surface geophysical surveys conducted in
Tanot-Ranau-Sadewala region of Jaisalmer district revealed
significant supporting evidence of the presence of the river. They
had found a ''thick fresh water acquifier'' beneath the inter dunal
depressions and the presence of a thick permeable unsaturated zone
of fine sand under the dry sand dunes.
''The 30 to 45 metre
thick highly permeable unsaturated zone of fine sands in the palaeo
course has great capacity to accept, hold and recharge ground
water'', the experts said. Interpretation of landsat-imagery of the
western part of Rajasthan had revealed buried course of the river
running from north east to south west. <<<
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 18-11-2000 01:55
Indology and Racism
http://www.sulekha.com/articles/skak_indology.html
Distinguished British anthropologist Edmund Leeach is quoted as
saying,
>Why do serious scholars persist in believing in the Aryan
invasions?... Why is this sort of thing attractive? Who finds it
attractive? Why has the development of early Sanskrit come to be so
dogmatically associated with an Aryan invasion?...
Where the
Indo-European philologists are concerned, the invasion argument is
tied in with their assumption that if a particular language is
identified as having been used in a particular locality at a
particular time, no attention need be paid to what was there before;
the slate is wiped clean. Obviously, the easiest way to imagine this
happening in real life is to have a military conquest that
obliterates the previously existing population!
The details of the theory fit in with this racist framework...
Because of their commitment to a unilineal segmentary history of
language development that needed to be mapped onto the ground, the
philologists took it for granted that proto-Indo-Iranian was a
language that had originated outside either India or Iran. Hence it
followed that the text of the Rig Veda was in a language that was
actually spoken by those who introduced this earliest form of
Sanskrit into India. From this we derived the myth of the Aryan
invasions. QED.
Jim Shaffer and Diane Lichtenstein, perhaps the foremost modern
scholars of Indian prehistory, write in a recent essay:
>The South Asian archaeological record reviewed here does
not support ... any version of the migration/invasion hypothesis.
Rather, the physical distribution of sites and artifacts,
stratigraphic data, radiometric dates, and geological data can
account for the Vedic oral tradition describing an internal cultural
discontinuity of indigenous population movement.
K
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punnam
Member |
posted 18-11-2000 10:26
Raghav,
Let me attempt a crude translation. I am using sweat for Dham and
Glow for Shobha. Most of the words are anyway from Sanskrit, so you
could correct me.
Vedam like roaring of Godavari
Undying sweatness
like glowing of RajaMahendhri
Centuries of history
possessing beautifull city
Past glory lighted sweat
poem
Rajamundry is a city on the banks of Godavari on the east coast,
south of Vizag, which is closer to river Gauthami. I am not positive
Godavari would be mentioned in Rig. We may find it in one of the
other 3 Vedas, Yajur, Sama or Atharva which are attributed to
different families of Sages who are not Sarasvati centric. From your
posts it looks like Saptha Saindhavi is mainly north India, as the
seven rivers seem to flow from Himalayan Mountains to Sea, not any
Mountains to Sea.
But from Vamadeva's message to IndianCivilization list posted by
Kaushal on 17-11-2000 02:04 it looks like last word is not spoken on
Saptha Saindhavi yet. If Rig is aware of a number of Seas or Oceans
it could be aware of geography south of Vindhyas. 7, 21 or 99 could
be number of major rivers, minor rivers and tributaries. Could be
Himalayan rivers, other rivers and tributaries. Land of Bharathas
included a majority of Indian Subcontinent. It does not matter to me
if Godavari is mentioned in Vedas or not, only curious. Godavari is
not like Ganga, it is not deep enough to sustain as much population
as that of the banks of Ganga through out its course. It is not deep
enough to build many dams to use more than 10% of water, without
increasing the risk of floods. I read somewhere that more than 90%
of water goes into sea.
While we are at population density, Anand M. Sharan's thesis
about the density of Gangetic plains and study of Hinduism,Jainism
and Budhism agree with Shrikanth Talageris' thesis about East to
West Migration. Anandji's efforts at linking of Santhals script with
SSC script are not finding any takers. His efforts at using
Ayas(Iron) to date Mahabharatha are also similar. Many of the OIT
proponents are concentrating on the supreme sources Vedas, Puranas
and Archealogy and he does not serve any good for AIT proponents.
Without knowledge of Sanskrit it is so tough for scholars to venture
into this field of ancient Indian history. Raghav, you have the
potential of a serious scholar. Kaushal would have published some
serious books if he knew Sanskrit.
IMHO
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 18-11-2000 21:43
Oh, boy! I am floored. Thanks for your kind, encouraging and
confidence engendering words for me, Sateesh. I am still a student
and have a long distance to traverse before I can get my PhD in the
field I am pursuing my research. I am also a student when it comes
to AIT and the Rg. In fact I am baffled everytime I go through the
information heaped by Kaushal or some other sources outside of BR. I
feel happy to have stumbled upon the Bhargava book in my school
library and BR ofcourse through which I am able to answer many
'axioms' that I have come across as a child, like Sarasvati still
flows under-ground; legends from the Mahabharata and the
disappearance of Dwaraka city under the sea etc. Now I know I don't
have to 'bluff' my niece and nephew with such myths anymore. And
it's all been possible only because I am in good company i.e.
Satsangati of BRites. I am reminded of another of Bhartrhari's padya
glorifying Satsangati:
stzTgk r"gtu nhr; rm@Tar; Jtra mÀgbT
>
btltuàlr;k r=Nr; vtvbT yvtfUhtur; >>
au;& Œmt=gr; r=Gw ;ltur; fUeL;bT >
mÀmETdr;& fU:g
rfUbT l fUhtur; vwkmtbT >>
It rids away (harati) the weeds (jADyam) from the mind (dhiyo);
irrigates (sinchati) the speech (vAchi) with truth
(satyam)|
Enhances the status (mAna unnatim); keeps away
(apAkaroti) from bad deeds (pApam)| |
Gladdens (prasAdayati) the heart (chetaha); spreads (tanoti) fame
(keertim) all around (dikshu)|
Pray tell (kathaya) what (kim)
does good company (satsangati) not (na) do (karoti) to human beings
(pumsAm)| |
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 20-11-2000 18:40
Dear Raghav,
Thanks for sending me the link. It is indeed very useful.
I haven't looked at the question of Godavari. I will and let you
know as soon as I get a chance. But we must remember that a
non-mention is not proof that the Vedic people were not present in
the Godavari area.
-Subhash Kak
> I have been participating in the discussion in
Bharat-Rakshak.com, concerning
the AIT. I have been trying to
post the verses from the Rg veda samhita there
(from Manohar Lal
Bhargava's book "The Geogrpahy of Rgvedic India", 1964) which
are
clear pointers to the geogrpahy of North India during the Rgvedic
period.
You can see the discussion going on in the following
URL:
>
> http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000003.html
>
> My question is whether the river Godavari has been
mentioned in the Rg at all
or not. Some opine she has been
mentioned and others vice-versa. Could you shed
some light into
this please?
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
Raghav.
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 22-11-2000 02:44
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/week_indus.html
>>The archeologists call it the 'Dholavira excavation'.
Archeologists and historians have hailed Dholavira as a Mohenjodaro
on this side of the Indo-Pak border, and use it to show the expanse
of the Indus Valley civilisation believed to have been destroyed by
invading Aryans from Central Asia. But Ravindra Singh Bhist of the
Archaeological Survey of India, who led the excavation, saw much
more than just another big Harappan city. "It is a virtual reality
of what the Rig Veda, the world's oldest literary record,
describes," says Bhist, who is also a Sanskrit scholar.
Kaushal
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 27-11-2000 02:02
http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/anthropology/indus.html
The Indus tradition and the Indo-Aryans.
By Subhash C.
Kak, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge
Vol. 32, Mankind
Quarterly, 04-01-1992, pp 195.
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 30-11-2000 21:32
Those who are located in Delhi, may be interested in this sound and
light show at the Maurya Sheraton,Kaushal
(crossposted from Indictraditions site)
From: BhuDev Sharma
Date: Thu Nov 30,
2000 5:08pm
Subject: Re: AIT Show in Maurya Sheraton in India
Dear friends:
In Hindustan Times, November 28 issue, on page 5
appread a
picture with following captions:
"A Sound and light show covering Indian History from the arrival
of the Aryans to the end of the British rule, in progress at the ITC
Maurya
Sheraton Hotel on Sunday. Photo Arvind Yadav"
Such is show is obviously directed towards foreign visitors and
the elite.
This group may like to know 'presentation of Aryan arrival'?
BhuDev Sharma
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 01-12-2000 18:24
Kak citing the book in his article on the "mugu" site is very
encouraging. In the last chapter which Bhargava has called "The
Great Change", he goes on to explain the various factors that (may
have) radically altered the geography in and around the Sapta
Saindhava. He also cites references from Mahabharata (especially
Vana Parva), TaittirIya Samhita of Yajurveda etc which talk about
the cataclysmic and seismic disturbances that may have occurred,
thereby changing the courses of many rivers, upheaving seabeds and
depressing the (then huge and formidable) PAriyAtras i.e the
Vindhyas.
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 03-12-2000 02:36
I was reading Rajaram's review of Talageri's book The Aryan
Invasion Theory, a Reappraisal last night. I was struck by the
following observations of Rajaram:
As Talageri observes:
... the joint
testimony of the Rig Veda and the Puranas provides incontrovertible
evidence that there were these dynasties ... during, and even
before, the composition of the majority of the hymns of the Rig
Veda: and that the movement of these dynasties took place from
east to west and not vice versa. (p. 297; emphasis added)
In the light of the above and with what Bhargava says "I shall
discuss them (the rivers) from sout-east to north-west as far as
possible keeping in-line with the practice of the rSHis", one of the
earlier posts can be examined:
Going back to the post (12-11-2000, 15.25 hrs) where I have
posted the verse X-75-5, which describes the seven main rivers of
the Sapta Saindhava, one can find that the verse starts with not an
important river of the Rg i.e. Ganga (then Yamuna, Sarasvati,
Shutudri i.e Satluj, MarudvrdhA i.e Chenab, ArjIkIya i.e HAro) and
ends with the Indus in the direction going from east to west. It can
be better understood with this picture -- http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/vedicsaras1.jpg
It is most interesting to note the rSHis giving an overview of
the rivers first and then going on to praise the rivers most dear to
them in separate hymns. This organized fashion of arranging the
rivers in the Rg puts Sarasvati firmly between the Ganga valley in
the east and the Indus valley in the west. The cherry on top of this
icing is the LandSat image which proves the existence of the Paleo
channel of the river. So much for the "fundamentalist argument", and
some insignificant Harqvati of Afghanistan which I came across in
the thread started by Spinster. Now, the next best thing that I
ought to do is to buy Talageri's book.
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 03-12-2000 03:50
Raghav, I should say 'Excellent my dear Watson (in fact more
appropriate to refer to you as Holmes).
Pl. buy both of Talageri's books(the earlier one you referred to
as well as the later one on the RG. In this later book he clinically
takes apart Witzel. Talageri is undoubtedly a very clear headed
thinker.
Kaushal
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 04-12-2000 09:38
http://www.voi.org/michel_danino/frontline.html
A reply to Frontline’s cover story (October 13 issue)
by
Profs. Michael Witzel, Steve Farmer & Romila Thapar
[Note : Michel Danino, a French researcher settled in India for
more than twenty years, has translated and edited many books related
to Sri Aurobindo and Mother and given lectures on Indian culture and
civilization, some of which have been published in book form. He has
also made a study of the Aryan invasion theory in the Indian
context, published under the title The Invasion That Never Was
(co-authored with Sujata Nahar, 2nd edition, 2000)a link to this
has been posted in this thread. The above reply to Frontline was
not published in the two issues that followed the October 13 number.
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VRaghav
Member |
posted 04-12-2000 20:54
Kaushal, thanks. While I (read Dr. Kak) am (is) in the quest for
Godavari in the Rg, I think I am ready to quote the verses
concerning Sarasvati from the Rg.
1. One verse describes Sarasvati as swelled by many rivers:
VI-52-6 -- mhôJ;e rmà"wrC&
rvàJbtlt > denoting that it had several tributaries.
2. Another verse (VI-61-12) speaks of it as having three origins
or sources (rºtM"ô:t >) and
bearing or receiving the waters of seven rivers (mË;"t;w& >)
3. Still another verse describes it as the seventh and the mother
of rivers:
VII-36-6 -- mhôJ;e mË;:e
rmà"wbt;t >
The description probably means that the
Sarasvati was the main out of the seven rivers; the other six were
like her children coming to her. At this point, it should be quite
clear that we are talking about Sarasvati and her tributaries and
affluents and NOT the Sapta Sindhus. IOW, and to be more precise, we
are talking about 'Sapta SArasvata' i.e. the seven Sarasvatis or the
seven tributaries of the main Sarasvati. The tributaries have also
been called 'seven sisters' -- mË;
ôJmt in VI-61-10.
4. Yet another verse speaks of Sarasvati and seven
rivers:
VIII-54-4 -- mhôJÀgJà;w mË;
rmà"J& >
The Sarasvati, according to Bhargava, "would thus appear to be
formed higher up by three main affluents; then by seven streams
(i.e. six others, probably including the above three and main
Sarasvati as the seventh) and to have seven other sister rivers,
running more or less parallel to it for a comparatively longer
course, and then, either joining it or falling into the sea
directly." Thus he says "there were in total 14 streams."
From here, he has gone much further to explain the rivers in the
Sarasvati basin (he claims to have studied about 40 streams in the
basin of that river). He also has put in great effort to especially
identify the seven sisters of Sarasvati. To what extent it is
correct, I really can not say. However, the seven rivers in the
basin of the Sarasvati (i.e the 3 affluents in its upper course and
others including the main Sarasvati as the seventh) can be seen in
this picture (IMO) -- http://sarasvati.simplenet.com/vedicsaras1.jpg
Some scholars like Zimmer, Griffith have doubted the identity of
the Sarasvati. They have tried to interpret her and the Indus as one
and the same river.
5. But Bhargava quotes verses where both the Sarasvati and the
Sindhu have been mentioned side by side with the Sarayu intervening
between them. They have been described as large rivers with huge
waves:
X-64-9 -- QLbrCbontu bnehJmt
> Also others like X-75-5 and X-75-6 which I have quoted
in my earlier posts mention the Sindhu and the Sarasvati side by
side.
6. Sarasvati has been described as a mighty river running direct
from hills to the sea:
VII-95-2 -- Nwragor; rdrhÇg yt mbwŠt;T >
7. One verse calls it a mighty stream:
I-3-11 -- bntu yKo& >
8. In another verse it is said to have swept away a ridge of
hills with its mighty waves just as one digs out stems of the Lotus
plant:
VI-61-2 -- Rgk
mwíburCcomFtRJth¥sÀmtlw rdheKtk ;rJMurCÁLbrC& >
9. One more verse speaks of its unlimited and unbroken floods
moving swiftly with a rapid rush and thundering roar:
Vi-61-8 --
gôgt ylà;tu yñh¥;ôÀJuMëarhíKwhKoJ&
> ybëahr; htuh¥J;T >>
10. Yet another verse speaks of it as filling the earth and the
wide regions of the heavens with its roar:
VI-61-11 -- ytvŒwMe vtL:Jtàgwh¥hstu yà;rhGbT mhôJ;e
rl=ôvt;w >>
11. Still another one calls it the mightiest of the mighty
streams and the most rapid among rapid streams:
VI-61-13 -- brnölt brnltmw and yvmtbvô;bt > respectively.
12. According to one verse, it surpassed all other rivers in
greatness:
VII-95-1 -- rJëJt yvtu
brnlt rmà"whàgt& >
13. While in another it is described as the broadest
river:
VII-96-1 -- J]n=w dtrgMu
>
From the above it is clear that Sarasvati has been devoted one
full hymn (i.e. VI-61) even though while the Sindhu was known to be
the largest river of the country (as in X-75-5 and X-75-6).
14. It is diefied and in one verse has been described as the
inspirer of good songs and inciter of good thoughts:
I-3-11 --
atu=rgºte mql];tltk au;à;e mwb;eltbT
>>
15. In the verse just following it, she is said to generate and
illuminate with her light and intelligence:
I-3-12 -- Œ au;gr; fUu;wlt r"gtu rJëJt >
Bhargava says "If these verses have any meaning, it is that a
good many hymns of the Rg were composed on her banks."
16. She is the best of mothers, the best of rivers and the best
of devis:
II-41-16 -- yröc;bu l=e;bu
=urJ;bu >
17. In still another verse it is addressed as the dearest of dear
streams:
VI-61-10 -- rŒgt rŒgtmw
>
18. She is prayed not to spurn the rSHis and not to let them go
away from her fields to places not lovely (like them):
VI-61-14
-- btvôVUhe& vgmt bt l yt"fUT >
swMôJ l& mÏgt Juëgt a bt ÀJÀGuºttãghKtrl >>
Bhargava again: "Sentiments like these would be meaningless
unless the Sarasvati valley was the original home of the Rgvedic
Aryas."
19. She is the sure defence like a fort of iron:
VII-95-1 --
ytgmevw& >
20. She is said to have given milk and butter to
NahuSHa:
VII-95-2 -- D];k vgtu =w=wnu
ltýMtg >
21. The PUrus are said to live on the banks of the
Sarasvati:
VII-96-2 -- yr"rGgrà;
vqhJ& >
Bhargava avers "I hope it is quite clear that by now that the
Sarasvati was the most important and one of the largest rivers of
the Sapta Saindhava and that it was in the valley of this river and
its seven sisters that the Rgvedic culture and religion originated
and developed and then spread to other parts of the country
including the valley of the Indus itself" (i.e. towards the west as
Talageri asserts).
[This message has been edited by VRaghav (edited
04-12-2000).]
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mirapuri
New Member |
 posted 05-12-2000 02:47
Folks,
Here is another rather well-balanced opinion piece on using
archeological evidence as opposed to literary evidence on the
veda/harappa question.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/051200/detOPI01.asp
----------
-M
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 14-12-2000 16:31
The views of James Schaffer, an archaeologist from Case Western
Reserve U;
http://www.dharmacentral.com/aryan.htm
"That the archaeological record and ancient oral and literate
traditions of South Asia (ie. the Vedic tradition) are now
converging has significant implications for regional cultural
history. A few scholars have proposed that there is nothing in the
'literature' firmly placing the Indo-Aryans, the generally perceived
founders of the modern South Asian cultural tradition(s), outside of
South Asia, and now the archaeological record is confirming this.
Within the context of cultural continuity described here, an
archaeologically significant indigenous discontinuity occurs due to
ecological factors (ie. the drying up of the Sarasvati river). This
cultural discontinuity was a regional population shift from the
Indus Valley, in the west, to locations east and southeast, a
phenomenon also recorded in ancient oral (ie. Vedic) traditions. As
data accumulates to support cultural continuity in South Asian
prehistoric and historic periods, a considerable restructuring of
existing interpretive paradigms must take place. We reject most
strongly the simplistic historical interpretations, which date back
to the eighteenth century, that continue to be imposed on South
Asian culture history. These still prevailing interpretations are
significantly diminished by European ethnocentrism, colonialism,
racism, and antisemitism. Surely, as South Asian studies
approaches the twenty-first century, it is time to describe emerging
data objectively rather than perpetuate interpretations without
regard to the data archaeologists have worked so hard to reveal."
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wasu
Member |
posted 15-12-2000 01:11
A new book
The Decline and Fall of the Indus Civilization
http://www.indiaclub.com/shop/SearchResults.asp?ProdStock=4118
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wasu
Member |
posted 17-12-2000 03:05
An old link. Wonder how many indus valley related items would have
been lost ?
Ancient Indian (Asian) artifacts looted by Afghan militants
http://www.anatomy.usyd.edu.au/danny/anthropology/anthro-l/archive/september-1995/0475.html
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 17-12-2000 04:31
wasu, this is an important link. I had come across a similar
newsitem on the Kabul Museum, which at that time was still being
maintained by a faithful custodian.It was a poignant article where
the custodian or curator (probably the same one in this article) was
bemoaning the fact that nobody in Afghanistan seemed to care about
these artifacts. In fact it has always been my contention that
Afghanistan has probably more artifacts dating back to the IV and
the Buddhist era, because it may not have sustained the continuous
looting over 600 years that India did - at least until the Taliban
came into the picture. In the Taliban we are seeing how a
civilization gets wiped out and a discontinuity in human progress is
created - a setback from which Afghanistan will take decades to
recover. This is exactly what happened in Indian history, which is
why the great majority of the Indian populace remains disconnected
from the past.
Soldiers stole all the most precious objects, Popol
said.Less-important artifacts were left smashed on the floor,
while
those too heavy to carry out such as life-sized statues of
Kushan warriors from 200 BC and the largest Buddhas were badly
damaged. According to Sayed Delju Hussaini, Afghan minister of
information and culture, 90% of the museum's collection has
been
looted. "It was one of the richest museums in the entire
region, covering 50,000 years of history in Afghanistan and
Central
Asia," Hussaini laments
It is time to weep as the remnants of a great civilization get
wiped of the face of the planet by ignorant savages. Just as the
Parsee tourists wept when they read the inscriptions of Cyrus at
Pasargadae and bemoaned the fact that the once great followers of
Zarathustra are doomed to extinction.
Kaushal
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Kaushal
Member |
posted 18-12-2000 22:21
http://www.indiaserver.com/thehindu/2000/12/19/stories/13191351.htm
Looking beyond the Aryan invasion
THERE IS now an active debate concerning Vedic Aryans and
their relationship to the Harappan Civilisation. The debate is
focused mainly on the origin of the Aryans - whether they were
indigenous to India or if they were invaders from outside who
entered India from the northwest in the second millennium before the
Common Era. Beginning about the middle of the Nineteenth century, or
roughly from the time the British established control over all of
India, it has been the official position that the Vedas and the
ancestor of the Sanskrit language were brought by invaders from
Central Asia or Eurasia or even Europe. This is the famous Aryan
Invasion Theory that is now at the centre of a historical debate.
More than anything, the Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) shows that each
era views history in the light of its own beliefs and experience. As
a product of the European colonial period, it is only natural that
the AIT should embody certain Eurocentric biases....
[This message has been edited by Kaushal (edited
22-12-2000).]
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Narendhar
New Member |
 posted 19-12-2000 15:31
Hi!
I have been following this thread for quite a while.
I am curious about one thing though. The gentleman named Kaushal
who has initiated this thread and has kept it going has completely
ignored the great patriot and scholar, Bal Gangadhar Tilak's work in
this area. His work in the 1920's called "The Artic Home of the
Vedas" is highly respected and considered seminal. I find it odd
that none of the "historians" like Rajaram, Frawley, etc have
commented on Tilak's work which effectively debunks their claims. Is
taking on a great leader such as Tilak and commenting on his work
"dangerous territory" for these guys?
Macaulay's Sanskrit knwoledge may have been awful or non-existent
but Tilak was well-versed in the language and was considered an
expert in his day. You cannot call him a "marxist historian" as the
opponents to Rajaram et al. are frequently referred to here. Any
comments on why his work has not been analyzed in this regard?
I have talked to some of my Hindutva-leaning friends and they
have been quite uncomfortable with Tilak's thesis, especially with
the parivar now courting Tilak as their own - rival of Gandhi and so
on. One of them actually offered the explanation supposedly given by
RSS idealogue Guruji Gowlakar when he was questioned about Tilak's
thesis (as he was voicing an opinion that is being "proven" by
Rajaram et al). Apparently, Guruji said something to the effect
of,"Tilak is right. But the present day North Pole was part of
Northern Bihar, it split from India and moved to where it is today".
Not wishing to offend a true Hindu patriot perhaps.
I am looking for some points of view that will analyze the
thoughts of Tilak with respect to what is being "messaged" here. And
another question too, for speculation:
In voicing his thesis why didn't Tilak feel uncomfortable (unlike
Rajaram et al.) that the so-called "Aryan Civilization" may not have
been indigenous in origin (Tilak was a devoted Hindu and wanted the
very best for his country, religion and culture). The "indigenous
origin" theory is very important for the Hindutva types because they
believe that anyone who follows a faith alien to India cannot be a
"Bharatiya". Tilak does not appear to harbor such notions.
Any comments?
[This message has been edited by Narendhar (edited
19-12-2000).]
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acharya
Member |
posted 19-12-2000 16:18
Very good points. First of all the discussion in this thread looks
at all view points. Based on scientific and archeological evidence
most of the new view points have been formed in the last 5-6 years.
They have been also validated by lot of scholars inside India and
outside with different leanings.
But there are still questions which are being researched.
Tilaks book has been discussed by Rajaram and all agree that he
had succumbed to the colonial theory of AIT. In his time there was
no means to really check the motives or evidence to corraborate AIT.
In his book he also says that Aryans may have come form Russia.
The only significance of his book is the orion related to
astronomy.
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advitya
Member |
posted 19-12-2000 16:35
quote:
Originally posted by Narendhar:
Hi!
I have been following this thread for quite a while. It seems
to present a complicated issue such as the origins of the Aryas
from a Hindutva viewpoint?
Sir
Kindly keep your political biases out of this thread. This thread
attempts to look at all points of view. So please make substantive
comments only.
thanks
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Narendhar
New Member |
posted 19-12-2000 17:20
Hi Advitya,
In deference to your request I have deleted the opening lines of
my post.
Now focussing on substantive matters, I have another question for
Mr. Kaushal, others and yourself as well. There are numerous
references in this thread about Tilak and Ambedhkar having negated
the AIT. I am not able to find any such references in the net or
otherwise. Could anyone point me to some? Also, based on my
knowledge Tilak discusses migration than invasion. This thread does
not consider migration at all.
Acharya:
Thanks for the reply. In your reply, you write that Tilak
"succumbed" to the AIT, based on Rajaram et al's analysis of Tilak's
thesis?
Any reason why an eminent vedic scholar, even recognized as so by
the likes of Swami Vivekananda (who spent a few weeks in Poona with
Tilak) would have "succumbed", given his knowledge of the Vedas and
proficiency in Sanskrit? I find it incredible that an aerospace
engineer turned vedic-expert can make such a claim. If there is any
basis, can anyone tell me why?
I would very much like to get your thoughts. I am a new member
and don't have the opportunity to participate that much. If I don't
reply immediately to your posts, kindly bear with me. I will
definitely reply when I find time.
Thanks.
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